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Author Topic: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro  (Read 7264 times)

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Ted T.

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2021, 11:45:59 am »
I'm interested in the "sinful animals" Ted, I think of animals as acting on instinct, therefore sinless.
Please consider:
1. The serpent was said to be cunning in evil above, more than, the other animals which implies they were somewhat crafty also.


2. The serpent was cursed above all the other animals which implies that they were cursed for sinfulness too, just not a strongly as he was.


3. When the earth was cleansed of the wickedness of men by Noah's flood, HIS regret over having made men specifically includes the animals as partakers of the wickedness HE condemned, Gen 6:7.


What is said about three witnesses in agreement?
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Ted T.

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2021, 12:32:36 pm »
If the world as you say "pre-existed" (the gap between verse 1 and 2 Genesis.),How does that affect the rest of the Bible. Answer: It does not!
Blade
Blade you're in top form tonight.



IF PCE is true it does away with the need to see GOD as creating HIS people as sinful by means of having them to be born into Adam's sin either as a natural system or as a system to punish Adam.


PCE makes every person on earth a sinner by their own free will, not by GOD's will...light cannot create darkness. Those who end in hell end there by their own decision when they chose to put their their faith in the definition of GOD as a liar and a false god, not by HIS will but by their own.


It goes to our definition of GOD, HIS attributes and HIS purpose for our creation.


Those who worship a GOD they call good who creates sin because HE needs it for some such reason tread dangerously close to the Woe of

Isaiah 5:20




Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.


Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

patrick jane

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2021, 10:25:50 pm »
Ted, I'm worried that I'm destined for outer darkness and the pit. Do I still have a chance?  :-[ :(
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


Copyright Disclaimer: All audio and music belongs to the owner/creator. This is a non-profit. Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.
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Mr E

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2021, 10:30:03 am »
Ted...Could GOD have known them without creating them first.??  So I guess PCE exist upon the preception of how powerful (all vs a lot vs a little) God really is.

Blade
Perception or interpretation....

Jesus implied the difference between between knowing ABOUT someone and knowing them when He expressed His disdain for the demons and the foolish virgins with the words "I never knew thee!" when we KNOW He knew all about them!!!

To know someone is different from to know about them and implies a relationship of acceptance, fellowship and even love.

When we take this idea of Christ's and apply it to our creation and His making decisions about us supposedly before our creation then we see that HIS KNOWING Jeremiah before he was in the womb fits into the side of having an accepting loving relationship with him before his life on earth and not that HE only knew all about Jeremiah in only the same way HE knew the people to whom He would say, "I NEVER knew thee!" though they claimed miracles in His name.

There has to be a difference in these expression and that is reflected in the  doctrine that no, HE could not know anyone before their creation in the same way HE knows them after a relationship is developed between them on the order of using to know as and expression of physical intimacy of the deep and abiding marriage of Adam and Eve.


Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.
I know Calvinists are blind to this distinction because it upsets their doctrinal cart and deny it is a true distinction so they can march to the drum that such a distinction proclaims the imperfection of
GOD alas....oh well.


We makes our choice and we sticks to it...

I'm sorry I clicked a button I don't know how to unclick... I didn't mean to "dislike" your post, in fact I like this topic very much.  I haven't spent any time looking into your PCE theories, but am happy to do so now and hopefully we can have a good discussion.

Can I offer an alternative idea to consider?  As often happens with me, I see things in a broader sense as concepts or images, rather than black and white- this or that.  More often than not, something is 'this AND that.'  I see in pictures, in words, in songs in stories and in dreams that combine all of these things, so for me- when something comes to mind... I consider it.

How can one speak of God in such terms of both knowing someone (before they were even formed in the womb) and not ever having known them (Depart from me, I never knew you)?

You point correctly to 'the biblical sense' of the word that conveys the meaning of "knowing" someone (in the biblical way).  In other words-- a person (in the broadest sense of personhood) was in the beginning, or even before the beginning in keeping with your theology-- "known" (united) with God before they became a person (in the narrower sense of human ((physical)) existence) but later at the appointed time of judgment, that person becomes unknown in the same sense of meaning-- no longer united.  It's saying 'Depart from me- we were never joined together.'  -and it's referring to that human soul or spirit that returned to God to stand before the throne to be weighed in the balance.

In a sense "knowing" is a state of union.  If one 'begins' with God (in union) and returns either to union there is no ending.  Those cut off from the branch are only those not united (not known) and only then does one face the fire of destruction.  In this sense it isn't so much a matter of beginnings and endings, but rather of remaining, or being cut off.

https://youtu.be/iO_W7cMWBMg
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Ted T.

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2021, 11:52:58 am »
Ted, I'm worried that I'm destined for outer darkness and the pit. Do I still have a chance?  :-[ :(


From my pov there is nothing to worry about. We decided our own fates over 6000 years ago. If the gospel of faith, [size=78%]not works, is true then it also means we are condemned already, Jn 3:18, by our faith, not [/size]works[size=78%].[/size]

[size=78%]Faith is not measured by how strongly we [/size]believe in[size=78%], accept, an idea but in how strongly we HOPE for the idea to be true. Heb 11:1 [/size]Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen [unproven].
[/size][/color]
[/size] Hope without proof is the essence of faith. Have you the proof you are saved? [/color][/size]Probably not but if you hope you are anyway, that measures faith. And if you hope strong enough to act on that hope by seeking GOD and righteous[/color][/size] living, that too measures faith.[/color]


It is our faith in Him to be our saviour without any proof that He is, that separates us from those who have faith they have nothing to worry about the judgement day because YHWH, if HE exists, is a liar and a false god and Christ the Son cannot save anyone from a sin that is a figment of our imaginations... This is why Prov 9:10 can say '[/size][size=78%]The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom...' as it leads to the HOPE to escape the [/size]judgement by[size=78%] some miracle.[/size]

[/size][size=78%]If my [/size]faith[size=78%] is a delusion I am still satisfied as my life is 100% better since my conversion and repentance, sigh.[/size]

[/size][size=78%]I hope this makes sense and if I write too clumsily, I don't mind rewording.  As you can see, my editor is still not working right.[/size]
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Ted T.

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2021, 12:12:48 pm »
How can one speak of God in such terms of both knowing someone (before they were even formed in the womb) and not ever having known them (Depart from me, I never knew you)?
I'm sorry I was unclear, sigh.

My understanding of PCE theology at this time is:
to know someone after they were created is to start having a loving relationship with them, a relationship which is based upon the person's choice to put their faith in YHWH as their GOD and in the Son as the saviour from all sin by faith, that is, without any proof. This was the start of HIS choice of them to be HIS Bride, our election.  This could be the base for the biblical use of knowing to refer to the sexual union.

The phrase 'I never knew you!' then must mean that our creation is not a knowing at all but only what we could refer to as a knowing about - it denies that any loving relationship exists with these people no matter how they live their surface life in His church.

I foreknew you means we started a loving relationship based upon your faith...
I never knew you means we never entered into a loving relationship because you rejected me by your faith in yourself.


Thus to know someone or to not know them has no reference to their creation at all.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 12:16:59 pm by Ted T. »
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Mr E

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2021, 09:13:01 pm »
How can one speak of God in such terms of both knowing someone (before they were even formed in the womb) and not ever having known them (Depart from me, I never knew you)?
I'm sorry I was unclear, sigh.

My understanding of PCE theology at this time is:
to know someone after they were created is to start having a loving relationship with them, a relationship which is based upon the person's choice to put their faith in YHWH as their GOD and in the Son as the saviour from all sin by faith, that is, without any proof. This was the start of HIS choice of them to be HIS Bride, our election.  This could be the base for the biblical use of knowing to refer to the sexual union.

The phrase 'I never knew you!' then must mean that our creation is not a knowing at all but only what we could refer to as a knowing about - it denies that any loving relationship exists with these people no matter how they live their surface life in His church.

I foreknew you means we started a loving relationship based upon your faith...
I never knew you means we never entered into a loving relationship because you rejected me by your faith in yourself.


Thus to know someone or to not know them has no reference to their creation at all.

I don't follow your train of thought here at all.  The passage you reference from Jeremiah is clearly talking about before physical birth.  Before development "in the womb."  So then it isn't talking about a physical person at all.  It's spiritual.  Yes?  It says nothing about knowing someone after they were created.  I take it you are some kind of reformed (former) Calvinist trying hard to reconcile "election" (predestination) with it's scriptural shortcomings.  Good luck with that.  You'll end up doing exactly what you fault them for doing (an unwillingness to let go of their preconceptions).

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Bladerunner

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2021, 09:28:16 pm »
How can one speak of God in such terms of both knowing someone (before they were even formed in the womb) and not ever having known them (Depart from me, I never knew you)?
I'm sorry I was unclear, sigh.

My understanding of PCE theology at this time is:
to know someone after they were created is to start having a loving relationship with them, a relationship which is based upon the person's choice to put their faith in YHWH as their GOD and in the Son as the saviour from all sin by faith, that is, without any proof. This was the start of HIS choice of them to be HIS Bride, our election.  This could be the base for the biblical use of knowing to refer to the sexual union.

The phrase 'I never knew you!' then must mean that our creation is not a knowing at all but only what we could refer to as a knowing about - it denies that any loving relationship exists with these people no matter how they live their surface life in His church.

I foreknew you means we started a loving relationship based upon your faith...
I never knew you means we never entered into a loving relationship because you rejected me by your faith in yourself.


Thus to know someone or to not know them has no reference to their creation at all.

TED..You  of course are speaking about Mat 7:21-23. Read the context...Of course He knew them for He made them even in the womb they were born from. The phrase had other meanings.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Ted T.

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2021, 12:24:53 pm »
I don't follow your train of thought here at all.  The passage you reference from Jeremiah is clearly talking about before physical birth.  Before development "in the womb."  So then it isn't talking about a physical person at all.  It's spiritual.  Yes?

The use of spiritual in this context is confusing... do you mean as a spirit or merely in GOD's mind?

People existed as non-corporeal  people BEFORE the creation of the

physical universe as proven when GOD scolded Job about where he was


when the universe was created. Ignoring the fact that this only makes

sense if Job was there, someone was certainly there because ALL THE

SONS OF GOD sang HIS praises for joy!!!

Job 38:7 ...when the morning stars sang together and all the s
ons of GOD

shouted for joy.

While we can thank some translators for their eisegetical help in trying to

keep us for being seduced by the dreaded pre-conception existence

doctrine by putting angels for sons of GOD, they did in fact substantially

change the meaning of the verse to suit their preconceived bias.

The substitution of angels for sons of GOD is NOT due to any reference such as:the sons of God, that is, the angels,, being found in scripture at all but is in every place an interpretation of the only meaning (so they thought) of what sons of GOD must mean in a context which they had already decided that no human spirit had been as yet created... exegesis, patooie.


And though ALL does not always mean all as in every person or thing it certainly can and is used in this way biblically.


So according to this verse from a straightforward meaning of the words used, if you are a son of GOD, you were there singing HIS praises for
his clear and perfect proof  of HIS deity and power as we are told every person has seen, Rom 1:18-20 so all are without excuse before HIM.

 
It says nothing about knowing someone after they were created.  I take it you are some kind of reformed (former) Calvinist trying hard to reconcile "election" (predestination) with it's scriptural shortcomings.  Good luck with that.  You'll end up doing exactly what you fault them for doing (an unwillingness to let go of their preconceptions).
Once  this verse as accepted as being the straight truth, I agree, the theology it implies throughout the rest of scripture  does indeed reconcile the blasphemies of Calvinism, Arminianism and Catholicism quite well.


If you'd rather think that GOD creates HIS Bride as evil by making her to be born sinful in Adam with no free will intent to rebel, ie guilty (as proven by the death of infants) without mens rea, then, fine. 


If you'd rather accept that GOD banishes some people to eternal hell because they are late in repenting (though the ability to repent is only by grace, sigh)  and their ability to repent is ended by their physical death (though some get 100 years to repent and others get only 20 years or less) which denigrates HIS nature of being loving as love is patient and kind and so  perfect love would be perfectly patient and not waiting another minute or even eon for their death is no kindness...so be it.


How can the belief there are people in hell who could be saved but He didn't do everything HE could to save them (especially just by waiting patiently) not be blasphemous??


Orthodoxy has had hundreds of years to write their doublethink theo-babbe to reconcile their cognitive dissonance over these contradictions rather than accept one tittle of an interpretation of what the true words of scripture might mean instead of their biased interpretation so I know that there is no dearth of such explanations...I just think for myself they must be wrong. These people know a bit about theology but they seem to know nothing of the truth of GOD's loving patience and justice  at all!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 12:39:12 pm by Ted T. »
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Mr E

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2021, 12:43:12 pm »
Slow down there Sparky.  One thing at a time.  Also-- it would help (since you are having technical difficulties) if you would just forgo trying to use the font features and colors and such.  It's making your posts almost unreadable.  Maybe just simplify things and perhaps limit yourself to bolding words or using italics for emphasis.  Keep it clean Ted.

Now all I was asking about was what you referenced from Jeremiah.  Pretend I've never heard of what you call PCE.  If you were to put it in a nutshell for a newbie like me, how would you articulate your view?

From what I understand- you believe that all "people" (anyone ever physically born on earth) pre-existed spiritually (in spiritual form as spirit beings) with God, prior to being physically born.  Yes?

And then you surmise, that at that time these spirits "chose" whether to accept or reject Christ (they chose to have a relationship with him, or not) ahead of their human incarnation- thus no matter what they did or did not do in their human lives, the earthly choices they make have no heavenly consequence at all because their choice had been made before they were even born.  Is that it?  Please correct any misunderstanding on my part and then we can go on.

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Mr E

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2021, 01:50:15 pm »
Quote
The Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) of the soul / spirit. All spirits created in the image of GOD were created at the same time BEFORE the creation of the physical universe which we all saw, Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20.

Okay- I now understand a little better where you are coming from...  you are equating 'ben elohim' (sons of God) with these spirits who were shouting for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth.

How about the morning stars?  --From that same passage in Job it mentions that 'the morning stars' AND the sons of God were present. If you focus on one, you shouldn't ignore the other.  If the ben elohim sons of God are the spirit beings that later become human beings, what then are the morning stars that were present at the same time-- singing together during the setting of the cornerstone and the measuring out of that foundation of the earth?

Romans 1 says that it was through creation of the world that the invisible became visible.  Do you agree?  The invisible attributes of God became visible through creation.  Don't you think that this would hold true in the forming (within the womb) of man?  The invisible attributes of God become visible.... before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.... invisible/spiritual/united  -then the invisible becomes visible in creation.
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Ted T.

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2021, 02:10:13 pm »
TED..You  of course are speaking about Mat 7:21-23. Read the context...Of course He knew them for He made them even in the womb they were born from. The phrase had other meanings.
Blade


Every phrase of the bible has other meanings...sigh.


My context includes Job 38:7 and Matt 13:36-39 (and all the other verses I quote which you pan) which imply He moved us to this world, not that HE created us here which idea leads to all kinds of blasphemy, which is all very explained away for for those who like the God who creates evil, believes in inherited sinfulness and who accept the end of HIS loving patience over the unforgivable sin of the damned.
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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Ted T.

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2021, 04:20:04 pm »
Quote
The Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) of the soul / spirit. All spirits created in the image of GOD were created at the same time BEFORE the creation of the physical universe which we all saw, Job 38:7 and Rom 1:20.

Okay- I now understand a little better where you are coming from...  you are equating 'ben elohim' (sons of God) with these spirits who were shouting for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth.
Not 'equating' - merely reporting that those are the words in the text...

How about the morning stars?  --From that same passage in Job it mentions that 'the morning stars' AND the sons of God were present. If you focus on one, you shouldn't ignore the other.  If the ben elohim sons of God are the spirit beings that later become human beings, what then are the morning stars that were present at the same time-- singing together during the setting of the cornerstone and the measuring out of that foundation of the earth?

The morning stars either
-  refers to all the Sons of [size=78%]GOD in Hebraic [/size]repetition[size=78%] for effect or[/size]
-  they refer to another group deifferent formthe sons of GOD.

Now we know that there are some of HIS creation who are NOT sons but illegitimate: Deuteronomy 32:5 “They have corrupted themselves; They are not His children because of their blemish but a perverse and crooked generation.


OR


their blemish is that they are not HIS children.


World English Bible
They have dealt corruptly with him, [they are] not his children, [it is] their blemish. [They are] a perverse and crooked generation.

PCE suggests that creation does not make us HIS sons or this could not be written, ie equating illegitimacy to perversity. Therefore, on the basis of Col 1:23 suggesting that the proclamation of of the gospel was a finished, fully completed act heard by EVERY creature under heaven, implying even the ones sown into mankind (Matt 13:36-34) and that this precipitated us to choose to believe it or not, a choice which separated all of creation into elect or non-elect by where each person put his faith.


Since a free will decision by faith, which is an unproven hope, must be by definition unproven, we can see that once the proof is given, then no more free will to accept or deny HIS gospel is available. The creation of the physical universe was the proof that locked the non-elect into their need to bow to sin and continue to exchange the truth they clearly saw and knew for the lie because they now loved sin more as per Rom 1:18 to the end.


This the creation of the physical universe had to happen AFTER everyone had chosen their eternal relationship with YHWH as HIS elect or as HIS eternal enemies...and the stupendous nature of the creation as the proof of HIS deity and power caused even those totally opposed to HIM, as a liar and a false god,[/size][size=78%] that is[/size][/size][size=78%], the morning stars,[/size][/size][size=78%] sang HIS praises for joy, even as they knew they were doomed to hell for their unforgivable sin.[/size]
[/size]
[/size][size=78%]Which [/size]scenario[size=78%] this might be, I do not profess to know.[/size][size=78%]


Romans 1 says that it was through creation of the world that the invisible became visible.  Do you agree?  The invisible attributes of God became visible through creation.  Don't you think that this would hold true in the forming (within the womb) of man?  The invisible attributes of God become visible.... before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.... invisible/spiritual/united  -then the invisible becomes visible in creation.
The invisible att[/size][size=78%]ributes of HIS dei[/size][/size][size=78%]ty [/size]and power[size=78%] were made visible that is PROVEN, by the creation of the physical universe to all those (whomever they were) who were watching!![/size][size=78%]

[/size][size=78%]Where is there any hint that it was not us who were watching before we were sown into our earthly bodies by either Christ or the devil, [/size][size=78%]Matt 13:36-30[/size][size=78%]? ? There is not one verse in the [/size]bible[size=78%] that says [/size]straight[size=78%] out or even hints obliquely that our pre-conception existence is impossible.[/size][size=78%]

[/size][size=78%][I chose [/size]nothing[size=78%] except bold from the eding menu, not my keyboard - the [/size]editing[size=78%] difficulties are not made by me...so I hope to be left alone about it and that it gets fixed!][/size][size=78%]
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 04:31:46 pm by patrick jane »
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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