Author Topic: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro (Read 4793 times)

Ted T. · « **Reply #13 on:** March 10, 2020, 01:12:02 pm »

Quote from: patrick jane on March 09, 2020, 02:22:05 pm

Ted, I'm sorry this has taken me so long, you deserved better. I was so busy starting this forum and TF and then I began my YouTube venture and I haven't much time to read, think and post. I'm with you on the we existed before creation but what about the nakedness and bad or evil existing before the fruit?

No worries mate! Your support has indeed been noticed and appreciated!

I'm a bit of a literalist so questions as "What about..." don't focus me to a particular answer, sigh. I'll take a guess that the reference to the fruit introduces the idea we sinned, became naked and chose to be evil before the traditional garden fall as being breaking the command not to eat. So, what do I think was the fall before the foundation of the world?

I think our election was conditional (not unconditional like our salvation is said to be), and I think that the condition was whether we chose by our free will to put our faith in YHWH as our GOD or to put our faith in HIS being the first liar and false god.

I believe that the gospel was proclaimed to every person ever created (which is not fulfilled on earth by current orthodox thinking) as per Colossians 1:23 ...This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. as the call to faith in HIM and the Son which some responded to with a free will faith in HIM, thus being chosen to be HIS Bride and some rebelling against HIM by a free will faith (not proof) that HE was liar and a false god thus making themselves eternally unforgivable and as never able to be HIS bride, fit only for destruction.

This sparse and short intro to our fall is merely to show my insistence that every individual accrues sinfulness only by a free will decison to be sin and by no other means. The full exploration of how this is expressed in the scriptures and how the fall logically had to occur is chapter length which I will not indulge myself in writing up until I know this is the focus of your question.

patrick jane · « **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2020, 01:49:34 pm »

Quote from: Ted T. on March 10, 2020, 01:12:02 pm

Quote from: patrick jane on March 09, 2020, 02:22:05 pm
Ted, I'm sorry this has taken me so long, you deserved better. I was so busy starting this forum and TF and then I began my YouTube venture and I haven't much time to read, think and post. I'm with you on the we existed before creation but what about the nakedness and bad or evil existing before the fruit?
No worries mate! Your support has indeed been noticed and appreciated!

I'm a bit of a literalist so questions as "What about..." don't focus me to a particular answer, sigh. I'll take a guess that the reference to the fruit introduces the idea we sinned, became naked and chose to be evil before the traditional garden fall as being breaking the command not to eat. So, what do I think was the fall before the foundation of the world?

I think our election was conditional (not unconditional like our salvation is said to be), and I think that the condition was whether we chose by our free will to put our faith in YHWH as our GOD or to put our faith in HIS being the first liar and false god.

I believe that the gospel was proclaimed to every person ever created (which is not fulfilled on earth by current orthodox thinking) as per Colossians 1:23 ...This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. as the call to faith in HIM and the Son which some responded to with a free will faith in HIM, thus being chosen to be HIS Bride and some rebelling against HIM by a free will faith (not proof) that HE was liar and a false god thus making themselves eternally unforgivable and as never able to be HIS bride, fit only for destruction.

This sparse and short intro to our fall is merely to show my insistence that every individual accrues sinfulness only by a free will decison to be sin and by no other means. The full exploration of how this is expressed in the scriptures and how the fall logically had to occur is chapter length which I will not indulge myself in writing up until I know this is the focus of your question.

Thank you Ted, let me read this post several times as I ponder and meditate on it. I will certainly reply soon. God willing.

Ted T. · « **Reply #15 on:** March 10, 2020, 02:07:52 pm »

Quote from: Bladerunner on March 09, 2020, 03:42:28 pm

Ted...Could GOD have known them without creating them first.?? So I guess PCE exist upon the preception of how powerful (all vs a lot vs a little) God really is.

Blade

Perception or interpretation....

Jesus implied the difference between between knowing ABOUT someone and knowing them when He expressed His disdain for the demons and the foolish virgins with the words "I never knew thee!" when we KNOW He knew all about them!!!

To know someone is different from to know about them and implies a relationship of acceptance, fellowship and even love.

When we take this idea of Christ's and apply it to our creation and His making decisions about us supposedly before our creation then we see that HIS KNOWING Jeremiah before he was in the womb fits into the side of having an accepting loving relationship with him before his life on earth and not that HE only knew all about Jeremiah in only the same way HE knew the people to whom He would say, "I NEVER knew thee!" though they claimed miracles in His name.

There has to be a difference in these expression and that is reflected in the doctrine that no, HE could not know anyone before their creation in the same way HE knows them after a relationship is developed between them on the order of using to know as and expression of physical intimacy of the deep and abiding marriage of Adam and Eve.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.
I know Calvinists are blind to this distinction because it upsets their doctrinal cart and deny it is a true distinction so they can march to the drum that such a distinction proclaims the imperfection of
GOD alas....oh well.

We makes our choice and we sticks to it...

Bladerunner · « **Reply #16 on:** March 10, 2020, 07:41:07 pm »

Quote from: Ted T. on March 10, 2020, 02:07:52 pm

Quote from: Bladerunner on March 09, 2020, 03:42:28 pm
Ted...Could GOD have known them without creating them first.?? So I guess PCE exist upon the preception of how powerful (all vs a lot vs a little) God really is.

Blade
Perception or interpretation....

Jesus implied the difference between between knowing ABOUT someone and knowing them when He expressed His disdain for the demons and the foolish virgins with the words "I never knew thee!" when we KNOW He knew all about them!!!

To know someone is different from to know about them and implies a relationship of acceptance, fellowship and even love.

When we take this idea of Christ's and apply it to our creation and His making decisions about us supposedly before our creation then we see that HIS KNOWING Jeremiah before he was in the womb fits into the side of having an accepting loving relationship with him before his life on earth and not that HE only knew all about Jeremiah in only the same way HE knew the people to whom He would say, "I NEVER knew thee!" though they claimed miracles in His name.

There has to be a difference in these expression and that is reflected in the doctrine that no, HE could not know anyone before their creation in the same way HE knows them after a relationship is developed between them on the order of using to know as and expression of physical intimacy of the deep and abiding marriage of Adam and Eve.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.
I know Calvinists are blind to this distinction because it upsets their doctrinal cart and deny it is a true distinction so they can march to the drum that such a distinction proclaims the imperfection of
GOD alas....oh well.

We makes our choice and we sticks to it...

Have you been close to someone only to find out later, you never knew them?

Blade

Ted T. · « **Reply #17 on:** March 11, 2020, 12:27:38 pm »

Quote

Have you been close to someone only to find out later, you never knew them?Blade

Do you mean because they hid their true nature from me?? No one hides from the Living GOD, Blade.

Jesus said there were people who would claim to be of Him whom He NEVER knew!!! This has to make sense somehow in light of the fact He created us, He elected us, He sowed, planted, us into mankind (Matt 13:37-38) so how could He NEVER know some of us???

The only thing that makes sense is that HE had a prior good relationship with those called the good seed aka His sheep whom He knew and loved but who went astray into sin but now are RETURNING to Him through the gift of grace: 1 Peter 2:25 For "you were like sheep going astray," but now you have RETURNED to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. When were you one His sheep before you were created sinful in Adam? In Adam's sin you believe we are are spiritually separated from GOD until rebirth so when were we His sheep in our sin?

How did we go astray into sin if we had no choice to sin nor opportunity to be anything but sinful in Adam? Either He did not pay attention to us or our sin was due to some rebellion in us...and which is more likely that our sin is His fault for not being a good Shepherd or our rebellion? None of this makes any sense whatsoever without our pre-earth faith in Him by which we became His sheep, aka His elect, aka His good seed, and then rebelled against Him, pre-conception.

patrick jane · « **Reply #18 on:** January 10, 2021, 07:51:51 pm »

Ted, at times I have arrived at the conclusion that I never asked to be here or to be born. People say that and believe that and what you are saying is that we did decide before creation, even as we will not remember that time or that decision.

Bladerunner · « **Reply #19 on:** January 11, 2021, 09:51:03 am »

Quote from: patrick jane on January 10, 2021, 07:51:51 pm

Ted, at times I have arrived at the conclusion that I never asked to be here or to be born. People say that and believe that and what you are saying is that we did decide before creation, even as we will not remember that time or that decision.

Quote from: Ted T. on March 10, 2020, 02:07:52 pm
In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.
I know Calvinists are blind to this distinction because it upsets their doctrinal cart and deny it is a true distinction so they can march to the drum that such a distinction proclaims the imperfection of
GOD alas....oh well.

TED, I am a 5-point Calvinist... It is a doctrine in the Word of GOD as well as the free-will we experience demonstrated in John 3:16 and many other places....How GOD Reconciles these two together, I do not know but I do know that both of them are doctrines of GOD and one cannot throughout what they don't like.

It is very dangerous. HOW? WELL...According to 1 Cor 15:1-4, we are to believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to scripture. In other words, How can one truly believe in Jesus Christ if they delete, add, change etc. the WORD of GOD to make it fit their lifestyle and./or worldview. It is very dangerous territory and only GOD will determine just how dangerous to the human soul it is.

Blade

patrick jane · « **Reply #20 on:** January 22, 2021, 10:44:42 pm »

Quote from: patrick jane on January 10, 2021, 07:51:51 pm

Ted, at times I have arrived at the conclusion that I never asked to be here or to be born. People say that and believe that and what you are saying is that we did decide before creation, even as we will not remember that time or that decision.

Ted, did you miss this post from me?

Ted T. · « **Reply #21 on:** January 23, 2021, 05:06:16 pm »

Quote from: patrick jane on January 10, 2021, 07:51:51 pm

Ted, at times I have arrived at the conclusion that I never asked to be here or to be born. People say that and believe that and what you are saying is that we did decide before creation, even as we will not remember that time or that decision.

I did indeed miss this post from you...

I believe we made a decision to put our faith in YHWH and HIS claims 1. to be the truth from our creator GOD, becoming elect, OR 2. as lies from a false god, being condemned to the outer darkness from that instant.

I'm also convinced that we knew that this would end with the judgment of all those who rejected HIM as their GOD but any elect who chose to rebel against HIS commands were promised salvation by the work of the Son. Election was indeed a promise of salvation if it was ever needed.

But I am not convinced that we knew that the physical universe would be created nor that all sinners would become humans Matt 13:36-39, and the sinful elect would have to live with the reprobate tares until we were fully sanctified, ie, made holy, ie made to be heaven ready: Heb 12:5-11.

If not, no one asked to be born human and some elect may have been dismayed when they were flung down to Sheol in the centre of the earth to await their turn to be sown, planted, into mankind.

PS, do you see the small print in the last line? I've had to fix 3 or 4 other places by changing the font size but sometimes, as here, it will not take. Neither are the 'remove formatting' and 'toggle view' buttons working for me, sigh.

Don't hesitate to ask again if I missed something...

Ted T. · « **Reply #22 on:** January 23, 2021, 05:31:18 pm »

Quote from: Bladerunner on January 11, 2021, 09:51:03 am

TED, I am a 5-point Calvinist... It is a doctrine in the Word of GOD as well as the free-will we experience demonstrated in John 3:16 and many other places....How GOD Reconciles these two together, I do not know ...

There is a complete and harmonious reconciliation of these doctrines in PCE but they are heretical to 5 pt. Calvinism.

PCE rests upon two of the strongest statements in the Bible:
1. GOD is love.
2. GOD is light.
Any doctrine that has a hint of putting these two verses into disrepute should be denied and reworked to make them fit the meaning of these two verses... but not by the sophistry of many words.

Can the proof verses be interpreted to mean what the 5 points claim? Of course but then either HIS love must be rearranged so the creation of evil people is loving or the definition of light must be reworked to prove that light can create dark.

Quote from: Bladerunner on January 11, 2021, 09:51:03 am

It is very dangerous. HOW? WELL...According to 1 Cor 15:1-4, we are to believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to scripture. In other words, How can one truly believe in Jesus Christ if they delete, add, change etc. the WORD of GOD to make it fit their lifestyle and./or worldview. It is very dangerous territory and only GOD will determine just how dangerous to the human soul it is.
Blade

Unless you claim to have had a personal revelation from GOD or that Calvin had a personal revelation from GOD, then all your doctrines have been made to fit his and your lifestyle and/or worldview...

The flim flam of exegesis is that for anyone to get the meaning of a verse from the verse without any input from their mindset and unfiltered by existing ideas is on the order of Paul's conversion as a bright light and hearing GOD's voice. Every interpretation of a verse is eisegesis, the fitting of the verse into previously accepted definitions.

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Author Topic: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro (Read 4793 times)

Ted T.

Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro

patrick jane

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Ted T.

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Bladerunner

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Ted T.

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patrick jane

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Bladerunner

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patrick jane

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Ted T.

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Ted T.

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