patrick jane forums

Quote from: Bladerunner on March 09, 2020, 03:42:28 pm

Ted...Could GOD have known them without creating them first.??  So I guess PCE exist upon the preception of how powerful (all vs a lot vs a little) God really is.

Blade

Perception or interpretation....

Jesus implied the difference between between knowing ABOUT someone and knowing them when He expressed His disdain for the demons and the foolish virgins with the words "I never knew thee!" when we KNOW He knew all about them!!!

To know someone is different from to know about them and implies a relationship of acceptance, fellowship and even love.

When we take this idea of Christ's and apply it to our creation and His making decisions about us supposedly before our creation then we see that HIS KNOWING Jeremiah before he was in the womb fits into the side of having an accepting loving relationship with him before his life on earth and not that HE only knew all about Jeremiah in only the same way HE knew the people to whom He would say, "I NEVER knew thee!" though they claimed miracles in His name.

There has to be a difference in these expression and that is reflected in the  doctrine that no, HE could not know anyone before their creation in the same way HE knows them after a relationship is developed between them on the order of using to know as and expression of physical intimacy of the deep and abiding marriage of Adam and Eve.


Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.
I know Calvinists are blind to this distinction because it upsets their doctrinal cart and deny it is a true distinction so they can march to the drum that such a distinction proclaims the imperfection of
GOD alas....oh well.


We makes our choice and we sticks to it...

I'm sorry I clicked a button I don't know how to unclick... I didn't mean to "dislike" your post, in fact I like this topic very much.  I haven't spent any time looking into your PCE theories, but am happy to do so now and hopefully we can have a good discussion.

Can I offer an alternative idea to consider?  As often happens with me, I see things in a broader sense as concepts or images, rather than black and white- this or that.  More often than not, something is 'this AND that.'  I see in pictures, in words, in songs in stories and in dreams that combine all of these things, so for me- when something comes to mind... I consider it.

How can one speak of God in such terms of both knowing someone (before they were even formed in the womb) and not ever having known them (Depart from me, I never knew you)?

You point correctly to 'the biblical sense' of the word that conveys the meaning of "knowing" someone (in the biblical way).  In other words-- a person (in the broadest sense of personhood) was in the beginning, or even before the beginning in keeping with your theology-- "known" (united) with God before they became a person (in the narrower sense of human ((physical)) existence) but later at the appointed time of judgment, that person becomes unknown in the same sense of meaning-- no longer united.  It's saying 'Depart from me- we were never joined together.'  -and it's referring to that human soul or spirit that returned to God to stand before the throne to be weighed in the balance.

In a sense "knowing" is a state of union.  If one 'begins' with God (in union) and returns either to union there is no ending.  Those cut off from the branch are only those not united (not known) and only then does one face the fire of destruction.  In this sense it isn't so much a matter of beginnings and endings, but rather of remaining, or being cut off.