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Author Topic: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro  (Read 2653 times)

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Ted T.

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2020, 01:12:02 pm »
Ted, I'm sorry this has taken me so long, you deserved better. I was so busy starting this forum and TF and then I began my YouTube venture and I haven't much time to read, think and post. I'm with you on the we existed before creation but what about the nakedness and bad or evil existing before the fruit?
No worries mate! Your support has indeed been noticed and appreciated!


I'm a bit of a literalist so questions as "What about..." don't focus me to a particular answer, sigh. I'll take a guess that the reference to the fruit introduces the idea we sinned, became naked and chose to be evil before the traditional garden fall as being breaking the command not to eat. So, what do I think was the fall before the foundation of the world?

I think our election was conditional (not unconditional like our salvation is said to be), and I think that the condition was whether we chose by our free will to put our faith in YHWH as our GOD or to put our faith in HIS being the first liar and false god.

I believe that the gospel was proclaimed to every person ever created (which is not fulfilled on earth by current orthodox thinking) as per Colossians 1:23 ...This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.  as the call to faith in HIM and the Son which some responded to with a free will faith in HIM, thus being chosen to be HIS Bride and some rebelling against HIM by a free will faith (not proof) that HE was liar and a false god thus making themselves eternally unforgivable and as never able to be HIS bride, fit only for destruction.

This sparse and short intro to our fall is merely to show my insistence that every individual accrues sinfulness only by a free will decison to be sin and by no other means. The full exploration of how this is expressed in the scriptures and how the fall logically had to occur is chapter length which I will not indulge myself in writing up until I know this is the focus of your question.
   


Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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patrick jane

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2020, 01:49:34 pm »
Ted, I'm sorry this has taken me so long, you deserved better. I was so busy starting this forum and TF and then I began my YouTube venture and I haven't much time to read, think and post. I'm with you on the we existed before creation but what about the nakedness and bad or evil existing before the fruit?
No worries mate! Your support has indeed been noticed and appreciated!


I'm a bit of a literalist so questions as "What about..." don't focus me to a particular answer, sigh. I'll take a guess that the reference to the fruit introduces the idea we sinned, became naked and chose to be evil before the traditional garden fall as being breaking the command not to eat. So, what do I think was the fall before the foundation of the world?

I think our election was conditional (not unconditional like our salvation is said to be), and I think that the condition was whether we chose by our free will to put our faith in YHWH as our GOD or to put our faith in HIS being the first liar and false god.

I believe that the gospel was proclaimed to every person ever created (which is not fulfilled on earth by current orthodox thinking) as per Colossians 1:23 ...This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.  as the call to faith in HIM and the Son which some responded to with a free will faith in HIM, thus being chosen to be HIS Bride and some rebelling against HIM by a free will faith (not proof) that HE was liar and a false god thus making themselves eternally unforgivable and as never able to be HIS bride, fit only for destruction.

This sparse and short intro to our fall is merely to show my insistence that every individual accrues sinfulness only by a free will decison to be sin and by no other means. The full exploration of how this is expressed in the scriptures and how the fall logically had to occur is chapter length which I will not indulge myself in writing up until I know this is the focus of your question.
 
Thank you Ted, let me read this post several times as I ponder and meditate on it. I will certainly reply soon. God willing.
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins and REPENTING, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise - EPHESIANS 1:10-14 KJV - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -


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Ted T.

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2020, 02:07:52 pm »
Ted...Could GOD have known them without creating them first.??  So I guess PCE exist upon the preception of how powerful (all vs a lot vs a little) God really is.

Blade
Perception or interpretation....

Jesus implied the difference between between knowing ABOUT someone and knowing them when He expressed His disdain for the demons and the foolish virgins with the words "I never knew thee!" when we KNOW He knew all about them!!!

To know someone is different from to know about them and implies a relationship of acceptance, fellowship and even love.

When we take this idea of Christ's and apply it to our creation and His making decisions about us supposedly before our creation then we see that HIS KNOWING Jeremiah before he was in the womb fits into the side of having an accepting loving relationship with him before his life on earth and not that HE only knew all about Jeremiah in only the same way HE knew the people to whom He would say, "I NEVER knew thee!" though they claimed miracles in His name.

There has to be a difference in these expression and that is reflected in the  doctrine that no, HE could not know anyone before their creation in the same way HE knows them after a relationship is developed between them on the order of using to know as and expression of physical intimacy of the deep and abiding marriage of Adam and Eve.


Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.
I know Calvinists are blind to this distinction because it upsets their doctrinal cart and deny it is a true distinction so they can march to the drum that such a distinction proclaims the imperfection of
GOD alas....oh well.


We makes our choice and we sticks to it...
« Last Edit: March 10, 2020, 02:11:43 pm by Ted T. »
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Bladerunner

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2020, 07:41:07 pm »
Ted...Could GOD have known them without creating them first.??  So I guess PCE exist upon the preception of how powerful (all vs a lot vs a little) God really is.

Blade
Perception or interpretation....

Jesus implied the difference between between knowing ABOUT someone and knowing them when He expressed His disdain for the demons and the foolish virgins with the words "I never knew thee!" when we KNOW He knew all about them!!!

To know someone is different from to know about them and implies a relationship of acceptance, fellowship and even love.

When we take this idea of Christ's and apply it to our creation and His making decisions about us supposedly before our creation then we see that HIS KNOWING Jeremiah before he was in the womb fits into the side of having an accepting loving relationship with him before his life on earth and not that HE only knew all about Jeremiah in only the same way HE knew the people to whom He would say, "I NEVER knew thee!" though they claimed miracles in His name.

There has to be a difference in these expression and that is reflected in the  doctrine that no, HE could not know anyone before their creation in the same way HE knows them after a relationship is developed between them on the order of using to know as and expression of physical intimacy of the deep and abiding marriage of Adam and Eve.


Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.
I know Calvinists are blind to this distinction because it upsets their doctrinal cart and deny it is a true distinction so they can march to the drum that such a distinction proclaims the imperfection of
GOD alas....oh well.


We makes our choice and we sticks to it...

Have you been close to someone only to find out later, you never knew them?

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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Ted T.

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Re: Pre-Conception Existence - an intro
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2020, 12:27:38 pm »
Quote
Have you been close to someone only to find out later, you never knew them?Blade
Do you mean because they hid their true nature from me??  No one hides from the Living GOD, Blade.

Jesus said there were people who would claim to be of Him whom He NEVER knew!!! This has to make sense somehow in light of the fact He created us, He elected us, He sowed, planted, us into mankind (Matt 13:37-38) so how could He NEVER know some of us???

The only thing that makes sense is that HE had a prior good relationship with those called the good seed aka His sheep whom He knew and loved but who went astray into sin but now are RETURNING to Him through the gift of grace: 1 Peter 2:25 For "you were like sheep going astray," but now you have RETURNED to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. When were you one His sheep before you were created sinful in Adam? In Adam's sin you believe we are are spiritually separated from GOD until rebirth so when were we His sheep in our sin?

How did we go astray into sin if we had no choice to sin nor opportunity to be anything but sinful in Adam?  Either He did not pay attention to us or our sin was due to some rebellion in us...and which is more likely that our sin is His fault for not being a good Shepherd or our rebellion?  None of this makes any sense whatsoever without our pre-earth faith in Him by which we became His sheep, aka His elect, aka His good seed, and then rebelled  against Him, pre-conception.


« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 12:32:24 pm by Ted T. »
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil


Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
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