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Author Topic: Only Their Body Was New  (Read 9569 times)

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Ted T.

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Only Their Body Was New
« on: May 24, 2019, 06:00:36 pm »
These miscellaneous Scriptures in the next category are those that I feel can be interpreted as bearing witness to the pre-conception existence of some persons. That is why I've called it: Only Their Body was New.
Psalm 139:15,16 ( NIV)  My (David) frame was not hidden from YOU when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, YOUR eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in YOUR book before one of them came to be.
Any bets on whether or not the secret place is synonymous with the depths of the earth? Must be eh? So then, David says that he was created in the depths of the Earth. Of course, you know that the depths of the Earth are also known as the grave, ie, the place of (at least part of) our after-life.
In other words, David's secret place has to be somewhere in Sheol.[1] I'd also say that from verse 16, he seems to be a little bit in favour of the doctrine of the complete predestination (preplanning) of everyone of our days on Earth.
And what do you think he meant by unformed body? According to PCE theology, each of us has such a body, but it’s not this earthly formed one. It’s the one GOD created us with in Paradise.

Jeremiah 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee.
If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time. Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.
You must be careful to not mix up knowing and knowing about. These are two different things. 

 For example, Christians know Jesus, demons know about Jesus.  This difference is also brought out in Matthew 25:12, where Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not...  to the five foolish virgins.

He obviously knew all about them, He just did not know them. Mighty big difference! Well this also means that there is a mighty big difference between GOD knowing Jeremiah and GOD knowing about Jeremiah.  Since I believe that GOD knows about this difference, then when GOD says to me that HE knew Jeremiah before his conception, I believe that GOD is sort of telling me that Jeremiah existed before his conception.
If GOD was not bearing witness to Jeremiah's pre-conception existence in this verse, would you please tell me what HE was revealing? Was it HIS omniscience, that is, was HE telling Jeremiah that HE knew all about him before HE made him in the womb, that is, before he was created?
But Jeremiah needed no revelation of GOD's omniscience.[2] Jeremiah was a priest. He was trained in the Scriptures and the Jews knew about GOD's omniscience[3] long before his time.
Well, anything but his pre-conception existence eh!!!
Let me ask you this. In your opinion, just what would GOD have to say to Jeremiah to reveal that he existed before he was made in the womb? What would HE have to say so that Jeremiah could put it in the Book in such a way that it would not give away any secrets for 2600 years?
Just because we forget does not mean that we do not exist. Nobody remembers their very early years or every moment in life. We willingly accept the witness of others regarding the follies of our early years that we do not remember. When we have People of this calibre saying that They knew us[4] way back then, surely we should accept such a witness too!
John 1:9  That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Boy, this one sure gets a lot of rearranging in the newer translations! For example:

NIV has it: the true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Margin: This was the true light that gives light to every man who comes into the world.  which contains BOTH interpretations that the light came into the world or every man comes into the world.

NASB has:There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
Margin:[5] Which enlightened every man coming into the world.
Amplified has it: There it was; the true Light (was then) coming into the world - the genuine, perfect, stead-fast Light - that illuminates every person.
Living has it: Later on, the One who is the true Light arrived to shine on everyone coming into the world.
New Jerusalem has it: The Word was the true light that enlightens all men; and he was coming into the world.
The New English has: The real light which enlightens every man was then coming into the world.
Margin: The light was in being, light absolute, enlightening every man born into the world.[6]
RSV has: The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world.
Finally, Wuest(#25) has: “He, the aforementioned Word, was the light, the genuine light which enlightens spiritually every man as it comes into the universe.”
Just goes to show you how much you can trust your Bible![7]
Well, I suppose it really cannot mean that every man comes into the world. How can we tell? You must have guessed already! That's right! It just does not match our old presuppositions regarding the creation of the spirit. Therefore “cometh into the world” has to modify the pre-existent Light, not every pre-existent man. Personally, I prefer every pre-existent man, just like it so plainly says.
John 9:2  And His disciples asked Him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?  From this verse, it becomes blatantly obvious that the disciples believed that this blind [8] man could have sinned sometime before his birth and that, as a chastisement for that sin, he was born blind. [9] I think that this is a very straight forward statement that shows that most, [10] if not all of the disciples believed in pre-conception existence.

It is also very debatable whether Jesus' answer is a condemnation of their belief, as it is usually thought to be, or whether He is teaching them a fourth[11] reason for suffering on Earth, that is, that this pre-existent man was sent here so that through the healing of his physical infirmity GOD would be glorified.
In other words, GOD had sent this person to live blind from his birth so that his healing would be a source of grace to the fallen elect in that, first, a living witness to Jesus' divinity would result from the healing of his blindness, and second, so that this question, with all its implications could be recorded in the Scripture, so that God could do something really special with this truth later on.
We must remember that this incident took place close to the end of Jesus' ministry, and it seems rather hard to accept that He would not have known all along that they held this view, and would not have corrected it long before this time, if it really was in error.
Just how can we reconcile such an “errant” situation with Matthew 13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Are we to believe that they knew some secret heavenly truths as well as some secret unheavenly heresies?
We must also wonder where the disciples, being Jews, obtained this belief. I've never heard of any orthodox Jews who believed in pre-conception existence at any time in their history. Why then would the majority, or at least the best of the disciples, believe it unless, of course, Jesus was teaching it to them?[12]
Another question worth asking is whether John ever changed his mind about pre-conception existence being the truth? Isn't it a little peculiar that of all the scriptural references to pce we'll look at, the three synoptics contribute about four while John, in his gospel, letters and revelation contributes about thirty?
 It should also be noted that John's writings were the last of the New Testament, that is, that he was probably aware by that time that the return was not going to be quick, that is, soon.[13] We also know (Matthew 13:11) that Jesus taught the disciples things that He did not teach the general public. It would go without saying that if He taught them this doctrine, He would also forbid its proclamation, a situation very similar to Matthew 17:9  And as THEy came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead., and His forbidding Paul to disclose the things he learned in Paradise.
It stands to reason that if they knew the same heavenly truths that Jesus showed Paul, they would not be allowed to proclaim them while Paul was forbidden to do so.

John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 18  As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 17:23 ...Thou ...hast loved them as Thou hast loved Me. 24  for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world.[14]
Jesus gives us four equations in these parts of His prayer.
1 - The disciples are not of the world as He is not of the world.
2 - The disciples have been sent by Him as He has been sent by the Father (verse 18).
3 - The disciples have been sent into the world as He as been sent into the world (verse 18).
4 - The disciples have been loved by the Father as Jesus has been loved by the Father (verse 23).
After these four equations, Jesus adds another part on to His side of the equation, to wit:
 5 - That it was before the foundation of the world that He was loved by the Father (verse 24). In other words, Jesus introduces the element of time or pre-existence into the four equations.

Now, according to the fourth equation, the disciples were loved the same way, that is, time, which, to my mind, means fellowship together in love (that is, pre-conception existence) in Paradise with the Father before the foundation of this world.
Jesus was sent into the world before He was conceived. I think the third equation demands that we accept the same of the disciples.
Jesus was not of the world because He was from Paradise, His citizenship was from another place, which place He was in before He was conceived in the womb. I think that the first equation demands that we accept the same of the disciples.
[I do not believe that Jesus was speaking of the sin of worldliness in verse 16 because, first the context seems to demand a physical world, the disciples were not free of the sin of worldliness at this time, as is proven by the many examples the Scriptures have recorded for us. For example, we have the desertion in the garden; Peter's incident with the high priest's servant; Peter's lies at the trial; the desertion at the crucifixion; the hiding in fear; Thomas' refusal to believe; some disciples' return to their former occupations; and Peter's refusal to eat with the Gentile believers.
I think that these incidents show us that often after Jesus' prayer, the disciples at the moment of trial did not follow the Spirit, but resorted unto unity with the world and feared being separate from “it” like Jesus was separate from “it”.
Such worldliness, although we can easily understand and identify with their weakness, still does not approach His lack of worldliness which would be demanded by the first equation if that was the kind of worldliness He had in mind. Therefore, I believe He is speaking of His and their pre-conception heavenly citizenship and that they all came into the world from Paradise. Of course, this would not be a new revelation to them, for by this time the disciples had accepted the doctrine of pre-conception existence and knew exactly what Jesus meant.]

Revelation 3:12  Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of My GOD, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of My GOD, and the name of the city of My GOD, which is the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from My GOD: Well, please take note that the New Jerusalem (pre)exists in heaven before it comes to the Earth. Now, do you think it's talking about bricks or people? 


Revelation 11:7  The beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit.
Here we can see that the beast's coming is called his ascent (undoubtedly because it is meant to be in antithesis to Christ's comings, which are termed descents[15]). Hence, we should be able to see that this verse connotes that this human person existed before his coming to the Earth[16] (but in a much different situation than Jesus).
Summary for: Only Their Body Was New.
Well then, to sum up this category, in
Psalm 139:15, David said that he was made in some unearthly secret place.
In Jeremiah 1:5, GOD said that He knew Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb.
John 1:9 said every man comes into the world.[17]
In John 9:2, all of the disciples believed in pre-conception existence very near the end of Jesus' earthly ministry.
In John 17:16, Jesus equated Himself and the disciples in four categories, each category involving His pre-existence.
Then, in Revelation 3:12, Jesus said that the New Jerusalem pre-exists in heaven.
Finally, in Revelation 11:7, the Scriptures say that the beast will ascend out of the bottomless pit.
Well that's six more verses, all easily explained in their most natural sense by pre-conception theology.
Now I know that you have heard it before, but the truth usually carries a blessing for those who hear it. Therefore, I say again that no other theology regarding the creation of our spirits has such plain scriptural attestation. In other words, this is the biggest rock around, by miles!!! Can you see it yet, Matey?
Notes for: Only Their Body Was New.
1.  The other world(s), synonymous with the KJV 'hell'. Paradise is in Sheol, the other heavens are in Sheol and Tartarus is in Sheol.
2.  Isn't that a funny way to reveal omniscience anyway? Like, if you were omniscient, would you reveal it this way? I rather doubt it, and if it is too dumb for you, do you really think that GOD would use it.
3.  As per Psalm 139:16 (previous argument). Why not look up “omniscience” in a theological dictionary or whatever? See how many times this verse is put forth as showing that GOD is omniscient. Well then, if it is not saying that HE is omniscient, what is it saying?
4.  If HE knew one of HIS children, HE had to know the rest too.
5.  Hooray for the KJV and some of the new marginal translations!!
6.  I wonder where they got this one from?
7.  I hope you noticed that I said “your Bible,"  not The Bible. It should be noted that these translations are made by some of the very best educated Christians around. That is what our experts think John was trying to say! Blindness is strange stuff!
8.  It is interesting to note the typology of his being blind from birth. Physical blindness typifies spiritual blindness, that is, the inability (unwillingness to believe GOD) to distinguish between the good and the evil. Since we were not created spiritually blind, we must have become blind somewhere along the line. By using someone who was born blind, we should be able to see a wee witness that it took place before our conception.
9.  I know that some Jews were aware that a person could sin in the womb (from Genesis 25:22  And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus?), but do you really think that is what they had in mind? Maybe you are going to start? I suppose that is a step above believing that the disciples were really stupid!
10.  I'll bet that more than just one commentator, (#26) for example, thinks that all twelve are included.
11.  The first reason is our own sin, the second is deservedly for someone else's, the third is innocently for someone else's, the fourth is the third plus the fact that through these sufferings, GOD is publicly glorified.
12.  I believe that Christ had just begun teaching them this doctrine, and that being the case, this is a very normal question for anyone newly introduced to pre-conception theology.
13.  And so he put in lots of testimony because he knew that they weren't going to be here to physically testify when it finally came time to reveal it to the public.
14.  This one might get some flak because, “I have pulled it completely out of context” or worse! Well, if I did not pull this here elephant out into the open, it would never have been seen. I believe it is an in-or-out of context elephant anyway, (otherwise known as a bi-contextual loxodonta heavenlia tooamysticalforasoma). :) Nevertheless, it might be a good idea to check out the context yourself.
15.  As per Ephesians 4:9  Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
16. Compare Revelation 17:8  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition. (The bottomless pit is space out in space. If the Bible is only the work of men, how did John know about the infinity of space?)
17.  And he's still saying it, in spite of the many attempts to stop him. It's hard to keep those apostles quiet!
Wheat are NOT reborn / regenerate tares !!!

Matt 13:36-43  ...Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

38 the field is the world
good seed are of the kingdom sown by the Son of man
tares are of the wicked one 39 sown by the devil

Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

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patrick jane

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Re: Only Their Body Was New
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2020, 09:16:03 am »

patrick jane

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