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Author Topic: DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT?  (Read 170 times)

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Ted T.

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DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT?
« on: May 14, 2019, 02:16:52 pm »
 DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT? [Part One.]

 (Get ready. This is a pretty tough section. This meat has been dried in the sun, which makes for pretty hard chewing. Bet by the time you are finished you'll be wondering if you've been dried in the sun too!)

 It seems to be a fact of life that only some people get to hear the gospel of the truth about YHWH. Indeed, it would probably be accepted as a true fact in any courtroom, that the greater part of mankind has lived and died without possessing any knowledge of YHWH at all. This seems to be an irrefutable historical fact, but this fact seems to be contradicted by such Scriptures as Psalm 9:17, Isaiah 40:21, John 3:18, and Romans 1:18-32 (all of which are quoted and the exegesis dealt with next) simply because these Scriptures lead us to believe that everyone knows or has known about YHWH and HIS intention to judge every one who does not believe in HIM.

Now if this interpretation is correct (and it is), then we are left with the questions of how and when did each person hear the plain truth about YHWH, and why does the vast majority of mankind appear ignorant of this revealed truth? I believe that pre-conception theology offers a better solution to these questions and this paradox than any other does.

Psalms 9:17  The wicked shall return to Sheol, even all the nations who FORGET GOD.

Kiel - Delitzsch Commentary(#22): Yea, back to Hades must the wicked return, all the heathen, that FORGET GOD.
We will looked at the first part of this verse later under GOING BACK. There we concluded that for the wicked to go back to Sheol, they had to have left it at some time. Now in the second part of the verse, we can also see that these same returnees have forgotten GOD. (The KJV “and” is not in the Hebrew text. That is why it is italicised in many KJV Bibles.)

 Now to my mind it is possible to look on the forgetting of GOD in only one way, that it means the rejection and putting away of YHWH's self-attesting witness and HIS prophecy  warning of eternal judgement, which to have put away, they must have previously received.

Now the thing we have to determine is exactly when they received it, and so far as this apology is concerned, the question boils down to whether this revelation is received in this life or whether it is received before this life as per PCE theology?

 Now I do not believe that it is necessary to go into all the shortcomings of all the in-life theories right now because in this case, all I have to do is appeal to the first part of this verse on account of the fact that it clearly supports pre-conception theology in that it speaks of their return to Sheol.

Therefore may I suggest that since the first part of this verse clearly supports PCE theology, that constitutes a fairly strong witness that the time when David believed that the wicked received the revelation of YHWH and HIS judgement was also previous to this life.[1]

Isaiah 40:21 Have ye not known? Have ye not heard? Hath it not been told you from the beginning? Have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? First of all, from the context (you could read it) we can determine that what they have known, heard about, been told and understood is the truth that YHWH is the almighty sovereign GOD (Isaiah 40:10). That is what they have received.

Second, Isaiah asks his audience (that is ye) these questions in a way that demands an affirmative answer. In other words, Isaiah is saying: Ye have known, ye have heard, ye were told at the beginning (and perhaps since then), ye have understood since the foundations of the Earth, that YHWH is the sovereign GOD. Isaiah is not asking questions. He is giving answers.[2]

Next, we should try to determine the time when they received this witness. Once again, so far as this apology is concerned, this question boils down to whether they received it during this life. I do not think that I am very far off the mark when I say that the words, if taken straight forwardly, seem to say that this knowledge was received at the time of the foundation of the Earth, which to my mind is definitely prior to conception for everyone, at least since Adam and Eve. Isaiah's answer is an exact match to pre-conception theology, simple and straightforward.

John 3:16 For GOD so loved the world, that HE gave HIS only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For GOD sent not HIS Son into the world to condemn the world: but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of GOD. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world. And men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The proper understanding of these verses depends, first of all, upon the meaning ascribed to the word “world”. May I submit that this word means Adam and all his children? I think that this is in accord with the Greek, as Mr. Vine (#23) states: (the Greek word) “Kosmos is used to denote, by metonymy, the human race, mankind.”

And does GOD love just some of mankind, that is, only the ones living since Jesus came that have heard the gospel? No, HE loves the BC ones too. (Believe it!) Therefore the “world” must include everyone since Adam.

Secondly, proper understanding depends upon the meaning we ascribe to the words “condemned already”. I believe that we must consider the condemnation as being already present before they heard the gospel, which means that they would be under condemnation even before Jesus incarnated.

In other words, Jesus' incarnation did not result in the condemnation of unbelieving men: they were condemned already, ie, they loved the darkness before He came. He came to save them from the condemnation they were under.[3]

Now in verse 18 John says that the reason for the condemnation that was present before He incarnated was unbelief in the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD, that is, unbelief in the Person of Jesus and all that He stands for. Now in regard to this unbelief, something we have to establish is why they do not believe? What is the nature of their faithlessness?

For instance, should we read the verse, “those that believeth not on account of their ignorance in that they have never heard about the Son, are condemned already because they have omitted believing in the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD?” Or should we read the verse, “they that have refused to believe are condemned already because they have refused to believe in the Name of the only begotten Son?”

Now, the first interpretation seems to give an explanation for the condemnation of all those who have never heard about Jesus in this life, that is, their sin is a sin of omission. They have failed to do that which is expected of them and necessary for their salvation. This seems somewhat reasonable but, to believe that some people perish for lack of the knowledge of salvation, one must first deny either the sovereignty of GOD or the infiniteness of HIS love.

Their condemnation on account of their ignorance means that if He loves them and is trying to get the message of HIS Son to them, HE is failing in what HE is attempting to do. Or it means that if HE is able to get HIS message to them, HE does not love them enough to send it.

Therefore, it seems that this idea of their condemnation on account of their ignorant omission of faith is untenable with the revealed attributes of GOD, and we should not interpret Scripture in a way that denies the character of GOD should we?

Well, since the first interpretation is untenable with the attributes of GOD, then we are left with only the second, that is, that the entire unbelieving world is condemned because they have refused to believe in the Name or Person of the Son of GOD.

Now this conclusion regarding the nature of their unbelief leads us to another conclusion, to wit: that for there to be a refusal to believe in His Name, there must have been a prior revelation of His Name. In other words, for there to be a rebellion, there must first be a known authority (revealed God) to rebel against.

Now, two things show that there was such a self-attesting revelation given to all men.

First, it is shown by what John says in 3:19, that the Light has been shown to the world (ie,  to Adam and his children) but some men preferred darkness to Him, that is, disbelief to belief, disobedience to obedience. The men he is talking about all refused to believe in the Son. Their sin was not a sin of omission. They had received the self-attesting revelation of the Light, that is, of the Son.

Second, that every unbelieving man in history is included in this rebellious group, that is, that the revelation is universal, is proven by John 1:9 the true Light, which lighteth every man. From this verse, we can see that every person on Earth has received or seen the Light, that is, Jesus, even those who lived before He came and the gospel was proclaimed.

Now, having established these facts of the universal revelation of His Name and the rebellion of all unbelieving men, we are faced with the question as to when each and every person received the revelation of the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD? Once again so far as this apology is concerned, this question boils down to whether this revelation was received before life began or whether it was received during this life.

I believe that there are two things that bear witness that this revelation is received before this life begins (and is subsequently forgotten).

The first is the complete absence, before He incarnated, of any unscriptural testimony regarding the name of YHWH's Son. I think that if every BC person received the revelation of His Name in this life, someone would have written “it”[4] down, or at least remembered “it” and talked about “it” to someone else. In other words, I think that the truth about Him would have been fairly well known before He came.

Secondly, I think that John also gives us a fairly strong indication that this revelation was given before life began in John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. If every man comes into the world, then every man must exist before he comes into the world.[5] Therefore, I believe that these two things bear witness that the revelation of the name of YHWH's Son that is given to every person, was given before life began.

Well, as you no doubt noticed, this is a fairly drawn out argument. Therefore perhaps a short summary would be of some profit.

First, we saw that the entire unbelieving world was condemned already, that is, even before He came.

Second, we saw that the unbelievers are under condemnation for faithlessness in His Name.

Third, we saw that the sin of omission is untenable with the revealed attributes of GOD and that John 1:9 bears witness that the entire world has received the revelation of His Name.

For these reasons we concluded that the unbelievers' sin was a sin of rebellion rather than a sin of omission, which universal rebellion necessitates a previous universal revelation of His Name.

Finally, in regard to the time of the universal revelation of His Name, we felt first, that the lack of knowledge regarding His name in all of history prior to His incarnation hints strongly at a pre-life revelation, and second, that John 1:9, which says that every man comes into the world, being that it connotes every man's preconception existence, also hints strongly at a pre-life revelation of the name of YHWH's Son.[6]
 
---------------------------------------------------------

Notes for: Does Everybody Know? When Did They Find Out?

1. Like if you've spotted one elephant in the bush, it's not too hard to find another (especially when there are lots of them).

2. Very good job of hiding the answer, Isaiah! You could give a course on "How to lay an elephant on the people, that is, give attestation to the future revelation of our pre-conception existence, and seal it from even the sharpest eyes".

3. According to these definitions, I believe that we can read the verse like this: For GOD so loved Adam and his children that HE gave HIS unique Son, that whosoever of them should come to believe in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. For GOD sent not HIS Son unto Adam and his children to condemn them, but that they, through faith in Him, might be saved. Adam and those like him, that have returned to the Shepherd of their souls and now have a belief in Him that will continue forever, are no longer under condemnation, but those who still do not profess such a belief in Him, are still under condemnation that results from not believing in the previously revealed Name of the unique Son of GOD.

When we read the verses this way, it is a lot easier to see that before Christ incarnated to save men, men were already under condemnation for not believing in His Name.

4. For example, that “It” is divine.

5. We can tell that John 1:9 connotes pre-conception existence because almost every commentator rearranges this verse so that “cometh into the world” modifies “the Light”, rather than “every man”. If “cometh into the world” only meant birth, they could leave it as it plainly reads, but because it means pre-conception existence, it must be reinterpreted to fit the prev-ailing theological theories on the creation of the spirit, that is, it must modify Jesus because, to them, He is the only pre-existent Person. More on John 1:9 in the next section.

6. Like, elephant tracks are usually made by elephants!


 

Ted T.

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      DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT?
 
(The next one is long and is just a little harder than the last one. Therefore, you should prepare yourself and make sure you have enough time to get through it, probably at least twice if you would like to understand it.)
 
Romans 1:18  For the wrath of GOD is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

19  Because that which may be known of GOD is manifest in them: for GOD hath shewed it unto them.

20  For the invisible things of HIM from
(NIV: since) the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even HIS eternal power and GODHEAD: so that they are without excuse,

21 Because that, when they knew GOD (YHWH) they glorified HIM not as GOD, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

1:28 And even as they did not like to retain GOD in their knowledge, GOD gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient:

1:32
(These people) Who knowing the judgement of GOD, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but have pleasure in them that do them.
 
My first question is, does the group of persons of whom Paul is writing include every person who will be judged or just some? To ask it another way, are the attributes listed in these verses true of every person who will be judged or just some?

I think most well informed Christians would agree that Paul is writing about every person who will be judged. Romans 2:6-8[7] seems to bear this out, for in verse 6, Paul says that GOD will render to every man according to his deeds, and then in verses 7 and 8, he splits all men into but two groups, the saved and the unsaved. Romans 1:16 and 18 also seem to bear this out, for verse 18 is the antithesis of verse 16,
 
Romans 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of GOD unto salvation to every one that believeth: to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. In verse 16, Paul writes of the entire class of men who will be saved.  Therefore, in verse 18, he must be referring to the entire class of men who will see wrath.
 
Therefore, we can say with a fair degree of assurance that the attribute of holding the truth in unrighteousness (vs18) applies to every person who will see wrath, and we can also say that the attributes of the ungodly in these other verses apply to every person who will see wrath. This interpretation is again backed up by Romans 2:6-8 (GOD) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath. in that the contentious cannot really be so unless they have first heard the truth. One can not disagree with that of which one has not heard.
 
Therefore, I believe that in these verses Paul is saying that all men have received the knowledge of YHWH and an awareness of HIS intention to judge all unrepentant evil doers.
 
Now having arrived at this same conclusion, once again so far as this apology is concerned, what needs to be determined is whether this knowledge was given before life began and is subsequently forgotten or whether all persons receive it during their life. I think that there are a few things which give fairly definite indication that this knowledge was possessed before earthly life began, and was subsequently forgotten.
 
First, I think that the absence of the knowledge of YHWH in every culture that has not been evangelized bears witness that everyone in this life does not possess this knowledge. It seems to me that either these cultures have not received this knowledge in this life or else there is something really weird going on all over the world, for why would they all lie about it when they were questioned? And why would those who get converted later in life not expose this charade of ignorance? Surely they must have been party to it during their younger years. Surely they would find out about this knowledge at the same time as everyone else!
 
Therefore, because I believe that the whole world could not get it together enough to all carry on with the same lie, in all ages, in all cultures, without even communicating with each other, I just cannot accept this knowledge is possessed by everyone in this life.
 
Well then, having eliminated the one, we are left with only the other. This knowledge must be given and received before this life, and forgotten.
 
Hark! I seem to be picking up some not so faint rumblings from certain sectors regarding something called the Universal Witness of Creation, that is, it is from the witness of the things that are made (verse 20) which witness is universally received during this life, that all persons have learned the truth which they hold in unrighteousness, etc. Well, there may be a Universal Witness of Creation all right, but I am not at all convinced that it is received during this life. In fact, I can not help but wonder where we would be at if Paul had not told us the answer to this problem regarding how GOD can justly condemn millions of people who seemingly never hear of HIM at all during their lifetime?
 
In fact, I wonder why we have a problem with their seeming appearance of theological ignorance if the Witness of Creation to YHWH is so universal and blatant as some would lead us to believe it is? Frankly, I think that you are going to have to admit that these verses constitute a part of the revelation of how GOD can be just and condemn millions of men, women, children and babies[8] who appear to have never seen, heard or known of Him during their lifetime.
 
I think that you will also have to admit that if these verses (and those like them) were not in the Scriptures, you would not know the answer to this problem yourself. But stop and consider for a moment. Some would have us believe that everybody who is alive knows about the very clear and blatant Witness of Creation. If everybody knows it, why does the Bible have to reveal it even to the Christians? Why does it have to be taught in every Church in every generation? Breathing does not have to be taught or revealed in the Scripture.
 
Everybody knows about that. But hardly anyone in this life knows about the Universal Witness of Creation to YHWH until they read these verses or have it “shown" to them by the Holy Spirit or by an educated Christian.
 
Moreover, if there really was such a witness given to everyone during this life, may I suggest that there would also be, at all times, quite a few people in every nation who believe in YHWH simply because they looked at the creation billboard and accepted its witness that YHWH was the ONE who created it and not any other. (In actual fact, it is always YHWH who leads us to this Witness of Creation, and only after HE shows it to us do we see how it bears witness to HIM.) And there would be no need for any kind of missionary activity to proclaim the deity of YHWH,[9] for this witness would be given to everyone twenty-four hours of each and every day.
 
People would not need to learn the truth about YHWH, nor would they need anyone else to remind them of it. Creation would be doing that constantly, at least, every time they used one of their senses. All people would need is the call to obey and a reminder of their fate if they continued to refuse to believe this Witness of Creation.
 
In addition to these shortcomings, the doctrine that the Universal Witness of Creation is given in this life cannot account for the theological ignorance of children that die young, nor does it work for the sensually incapacitated, that is, the blind, dumb, retarded, etc. Nor does it work when we consider the doctrine that all men are spiritually blind and can't see the truth without the gracious saving light of the gospel. (It says men are not blind and can see GOD without that grace.)
 
It is also contradicted by the vanity of so many Hindus and Buddhists, that spend years meditating on creation and come up with the witness that they are god: hardly a witness to YHWH and HIS judgement.
 
May I verily verily suggest that the Witness of Creation that we are usually told about does not exist in life in such a way that gives all unrepentant, unevangelised people sufficient conviction to render them without excuse for their rebellion.
 
Now there is a Witness of Creation given in this life and it comes in two major colours. For those who have no Christian training or awareness it looks like this: if it is true that creation has a Creator, that Creator must be infinitely powerful, intelligent, and eternal, hence, divine. The Witness of Creation in life to the uneducated in true religion goes little further than this. This is why all religions can look at the Witness of Creation given in this life and see testimony of their concept of god. To the educated Christian, the Witness of Creation comes in a different colour however, for to them, creation bears a very strong witness to YHWH.

But Paul was not referring to this witness when he wrote Romans. He was referring to the one that everyone received, that is, the universal one that leaves all without any excuse of ignorance.
 
Other Christians, who realise the shortcomings of the doctrine that the Witness of Creation is universally given in this life, often argue that the knowledge of YHWH is innate or instinctive in all persons. The trouble with this argument is that it too is simply not backed up by reality, and in two ways.
 
First, some missionaries that I read about claimed to have come across some people who did not have any ideas of any kind of god, hence, possessing no innate knowledge of YHWH at all.
 
Secondly, in those persons who supposedly have some innate knowledge of god, and as the supporters of this argument must themselves admit, it usually goes no further than the naked fact of a superior power of some sort, that is, a god-ness which is almost totally undefined, what definition there is being left up to the individual, and is miles away from an adequate knowledge of YHWH and HIS judgement.
 
Thus, even if they possessed this type of innate knowledge, on the basis of such knowledge they could hardly be charged with the sin of forgetting about or scorning YHWH's self-attesting revelation and warning.
 
Finally, in regard to those few individuals who claim to innately have a true knowledge of YHWH, may I suggest that it was most likely put in them in their early childhood by their Christian cultural environment or even guardian angels, but for those who are sure that they were born possessing such knowledge, I believe that pre-conception existence explains that fact quite nicely in that we do not always completely forget everything, ie, our memory is not erased, it is just covered over.
 
Therefore, although such things are buried quite deep, they are still there. I believe that this answer is much more realistic than affirming, against the mountain of evidence to the contrary, that all persons are likewise born knowing.[10]
 
In addition to the fact that the reality we live in goes against the interpretation that these theological truths are innate or universally witnessed to in this life,[11] I think that these verses go against it themselves, in that these verses must be reinterpreted to fit such interpretations.
 
For example, in verse 18, “revealed” must mean much less than a real revelation. In verse 19, the same is true of the word “shewed” which must mean very little indeed, rather than as much as we now know about HIM. In verse 20, “clearly seen” must be given a very limited and unclear definition, rather than the kind of understanding that satan and his angels have. “Being understood by the things that are made” must mean something between being understood at a quick glance and being understood after careful meditation and thought about the things that were made long before, rather than being understood through witnessing the very creation of these things like satan and his angels witnessed. (I am sure that they learned a lot more about GOD from witnessing the six day creation of Genesis 1:3 to 31.)
 
In verse 21, “knew GOD” must mean only knew about some superior power, rather than knowing YHWH personally and knowing that HE is GOD (like satan and his angels did after they put out of Paradise), and “vain” must be looked on as something each person becomes after their rebellion in life, rather than the way almost every person is born and, in the same vein, each child must be looked on as being born with an innocent heart and mind, rather than with a “reprobate mind” and a heart given over to and darkened by sin. Finally, in verse 32, “knowing the judgement of GOD” must be looked on as much less than the explicit knowledge of eternal damnation which it really is. How many persons do you know that know about their eternal damnation? But according to this verse, everyone should have a very clear knowledge of it, say like satan and his angels do.
 
Well, these Scriptures, as they plainly read, can not help but put the Created on Earth theorists in a difficult position. They must either reinterpret the class of men that Paul is writing about so that it does not refer to everyone who will be judged (that is, interpret it so that it includes only those who have received clear testimony to YHWH in this life and have rejected it); OR they must redefine all these attributes so that they apply to all persons, even those who die in infancy and ignorance.
 
These are the only real alternatives they have to accepting that the only way that these verses could be true, as they plainly read, is if all people had received this knowledge prior to their life on Earth.
 
Last of all, I think Paul again bears witness that this revelation is not received during this life, for if he thought it was, how could he have said in  1 Corinthians 13:12: For now we see through a glass, darkly;...now I know in part?
 
Are you really prepared to accept that the “clearly seen” and “shewed” of each and every pagan constitutes much, much less than the “through a glass darkly, - know in part” of most of the Christian crop?  f this is Paul's description of the attainment of most Christians in the knowledge of GOD, how can he possibly describe that which every pagan knows as “clearly seen” and “shewed”?
 
To my mind, if one is prepared to accept such a contradictory interpretation, he might as well throw his Bible away because, as someone once said, “then there is an end of all significance in language, and Scripture is wiped out as a definite testimony to anything.”
 
Just how much more reasonable is it to realise that the “clearly seen” revelation is the one that took place before Adam and Eve, and that the “through a glass darkly” is the description of the limits of the vision that the best Christians get on Earth? Much more to my mind![12]

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were SOMETIME alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven:

So GOD died so that we could become holy (vs. 22)! And how is that going to be achieved? Well, through the gospel that was preached to every creature under heaven. Wonder when this preaching took place!??? It must have been before the  “sometime” they were alienated!
 
I bet it would be a drag to cling to a different gospel, say one that has not been preached to every creature under heaven. Of course, every gospel has an interpretation for this verse. I guess you will just have to choose: is it hyperbole or fact? Which one makes the most sense?
 
1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him that is from the beginning.
 
I think that the translations of this verse reveal a little of the bias of our translators, that as soon as they get a Scripture which can not be reinterpreted to conform to their created on Earth presuppositions, they often just add a word or two so that it can (in the name of helping our understanding of course!) !
 
What I am referring to are the words “that is”.
 
They are not in the Greek text.
 
That is why they are italicised in some Bibles. Therefore I believe that I am much more correct than they are if I read the verse this way: I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him from the beginning.
 
What more do I need to say? GOD's word or man's word: which one are you going to take your stand on? Built on the Rock eh? Well, I’d just make sure that it is not a man-made rock!
 
---------------------------------------------------------
 
Notes for: [Part Two]
 
7.  Romans 2:6-8 - (GOD) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.
 
8.  Wouldn't you say that the fact that babies are included among those who will be condemned shows that the Universal Witness of Creation that they received, was received before they began this life?
 
9.  In just the same way that there is no need for any missionary activity to reveal the existence of the sun, but there is a need for missionaries to reveal the truth about YHWH, as Paul states in Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard (in this life)?
 
10.  It is very hard for such people to account for this innate knowledge in themselves if everyone does not have it.

11.  Of course, I have grown to the point where I am not afraid to stand with the GOD of truth, that is, the holy GOD. That's the whole trouble with this doctrine. Its implications are not pretty. They don't fit in with our unholy, idolatrous fantasies very well.
 
12. One more thing about the reality we live in. Did you know that you could go to a place you have been in before you were conceived, a real place you would remember and a place you would call your real home? (For example, when a person dies, their first thought is usually, I'm dead - their second is, I'm back.)

 

 
 
 

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      DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT?
 
(The next one is long and is just a little harder than the last one. Therefore, you should prepare yourself and make sure you have enough time to get through it, probably at least twice if you would like to understand it.)
 
Romans 1:18  For the wrath of GOD is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

19  Because that which may be known of GOD is manifest in them: for GOD hath shewed it unto them.

20  For the invisible things of HIM from
(NIV: since) the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even HIS eternal power and GODHEAD: so that they are without excuse,

21 Because that, when they knew GOD (YHWH) they glorified HIM not as GOD, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

1:28 And even as they did not like to retain GOD in their knowledge, GOD gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient:

1:32
(These people) Who knowing the judgement of GOD, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but have pleasure in them that do them.
 
My first question is, does the group of persons of whom Paul is writing include every person who will be judged or just some? To ask it another way, are the attributes listed in these verses true of every person who will be judged or just some?

I think most well informed Christians would agree that Paul is writing about every person who will be judged. Romans 2:6-8[7] seems to bear this out, for in verse 6, Paul says that GOD will render to every man according to his deeds, and then in verses 7 and 8, he splits all men into but two groups, the saved and the unsaved. Romans 1:16 and 18 also seem to bear this out, for verse 18 is the antithesis of verse 16,
 
Romans 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of GOD unto salvation to every one that believeth: to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. In verse 16, Paul writes of the entire class of men who will be saved.  Therefore, in verse 18, he must be referring to the entire class of men who will see wrath.
 
Therefore, we can say with a fair degree of assurance that the attribute of holding the truth in unrighteousness (vs18) applies to every person who will see wrath, and we can also say that the attributes of the ungodly in these other verses apply to every person who will see wrath. This interpretation is again backed up by Romans 2:6-8 (GOD) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath. in that the contentious cannot really be so unless they have first heard the truth. One can not disagree with that of which one has not heard.
 
Therefore, I believe that in these verses Paul is saying that all men have received the knowledge of YHWH and an awareness of HIS intention to judge all unrepentant evil doers.
 
Now having arrived at this same conclusion, once again so far as this apology is concerned, what needs to be determined is whether this knowledge was given before life began and is subsequently forgotten or whether all persons receive it during their life. I think that there are a few things which give fairly definite indication that this knowledge was possessed before earthly life began, and was subsequently forgotten.
 
First, I think that the absence of the knowledge of YHWH in every culture that has not been evangelized bears witness that everyone in this life does not possess this knowledge. It seems to me that either these cultures have not received this knowledge in this life or else there is something really weird going on all over the world, for why would they all lie about it when they were questioned? And why would those who get converted later in life not expose this charade of ignorance? Surely they must have been party to it during their younger years. Surely they would find out about this knowledge at the same time as everyone else!
 
Therefore, because I believe that the whole world could not get it together enough to all carry on with the same lie, in all ages, in all cultures, without even communicating with each other, I just cannot accept this knowledge is possessed by everyone in this life.
 
Well then, having eliminated the one, we are left with only the other. This knowledge must be given and received before this life, and forgotten.
 
Hark! I seem to be picking up some not so faint rumblings from certain sectors regarding something called the Universal Witness of Creation, that is, it is from the witness of the things that are made (verse 20) which witness is universally received during this life, that all persons have learned the truth which they hold in unrighteousness, etc. Well, there may be a Universal Witness of Creation all right, but I am not at all convinced that it is received during this life. In fact, I can not help but wonder where we would be at if Paul had not told us the answer to this problem regarding how GOD can justly condemn millions of people who seemingly never hear of HIM at all during their lifetime?
 
In fact, I wonder why we have a problem with their seeming appearance of theological ignorance if the Witness of Creation to YHWH is so universal and blatant as some would lead us to believe it is? Frankly, I think that you are going to have to admit that these verses constitute a part of the revelation of how GOD can be just and condemn millions of men, women, children and babies[8] who appear to have never seen, heard or known of Him during their lifetime.
 
I think that you will also have to admit that if these verses (and those like them) were not in the Scriptures, you would not know the answer to this problem yourself. But stop and consider for a moment. Some would have us believe that everybody who is alive knows about the very clear and blatant Witness of Creation. If everybody knows it, why does the Bible have to reveal it even to the Christians? Why does it have to be taught in every Church in every generation? Breathing does not have to be taught or revealed in the Scripture.
 
Everybody knows about that. But hardly anyone in this life knows about the Universal Witness of Creation to YHWH until they read these verses or have it “shown" to them by the Holy Spirit or by an educated Christian.
 
Moreover, if there really was such a witness given to everyone during this life, may I suggest that there would also be, at all times, quite a few people in every nation who believe in YHWH simply because they looked at the creation billboard and accepted its witness that YHWH was the ONE who created it and not any other. (In actual fact, it is always YHWH who leads us to this Witness of Creation, and only after HE shows it to us do we see how it bears witness to HIM.) And there would be no need for any kind of missionary activity to proclaim the deity of YHWH,[9] for this witness would be given to everyone twenty-four hours of each and every day.
 
People would not need to learn the truth about YHWH, nor would they need anyone else to remind them of it. Creation would be doing that constantly, at least, every time they used one of their senses. All people would need is the call to obey and a reminder of their fate if they continued to refuse to believe this Witness of Creation.
 
In addition to these shortcomings, the doctrine that the Universal Witness of Creation is given in this life cannot account for the theological ignorance of children that die young, nor does it work for the sensually incapacitated, that is, the blind, dumb, retarded, etc. Nor does it work when we consider the doctrine that all men are spiritually blind and can't see the truth without the gracious saving light of the gospel. (It says men are not blind and can see GOD without that grace.)
 
It is also contradicted by the vanity of so many Hindus and Buddhists, that spend years meditating on creation and come up with the witness that they are god: hardly a witness to YHWH and HIS judgement.
 
May I verily verily suggest that the Witness of Creation that we are usually told about does not exist in life in such a way that gives all unrepentant, unevangelised people sufficient conviction to render them without excuse for their rebellion.
 
Now there is a Witness of Creation given in this life and it comes in two major colours. For those who have no Christian training or awareness it looks like this: if it is true that creation has a Creator, that Creator must be infinitely powerful, intelligent, and eternal, hence, divine. The Witness of Creation in life to the uneducated in true religion goes little further than this. This is why all religions can look at the Witness of Creation given in this life and see testimony of their concept of god. To the educated Christian, the Witness of Creation comes in a different colour however, for to them, creation bears a very strong witness to YHWH.

But Paul was not referring to this witness when he wrote Romans. He was referring to the one that everyone received, that is, the universal one that leaves all without any excuse of ignorance.
 
Other Christians, who realise the shortcomings of the doctrine that the Witness of Creation is universally given in this life, often argue that the knowledge of YHWH is innate or instinctive in all persons. The trouble with this argument is that it too is simply not backed up by reality, and in two ways.
 
First, some missionaries that I read about claimed to have come across some people who did not have any ideas of any kind of god, hence, possessing no innate knowledge of YHWH at all.
 
Secondly, in those persons who supposedly have some innate knowledge of god, and as the supporters of this argument must themselves admit, it usually goes no further than the naked fact of a superior power of some sort, that is, a god-ness which is almost totally undefined, what definition there is being left up to the individual, and is miles away from an adequate knowledge of YHWH and HIS judgement.
 
Thus, even if they possessed this type of innate knowledge, on the basis of such knowledge they could hardly be charged with the sin of forgetting about or scorning YHWH's self-attesting revelation and warning.
 
Finally, in regard to those few individuals who claim to innately have a true knowledge of YHWH, may I suggest that it was most likely put in them in their early childhood by their Christian cultural environment or even guardian angels, but for those who are sure that they were born possessing such knowledge, I believe that pre-conception existence explains that fact quite nicely in that we do not always completely forget everything, ie, our memory is not erased, it is just covered over.
 
Therefore, although such things are buried quite deep, they are still there. I believe that this answer is much more realistic than affirming, against the mountain of evidence to the contrary, that all persons are likewise born knowing.[10]
 
In addition to the fact that the reality we live in goes against the interpretation that these theological truths are innate or universally witnessed to in this life,[11] I think that these verses go against it themselves, in that these verses must be reinterpreted to fit such interpretations.
 
For example, in verse 18, “revealed” must mean much less than a real revelation. In verse 19, the same is true of the word “shewed” which must mean very little indeed, rather than as much as we now know about HIM. In verse 20, “clearly seen” must be given a very limited and unclear definition, rather than the kind of understanding that satan and his angels have. “Being understood by the things that are made” must mean something between being understood at a quick glance and being understood after careful meditation and thought about the things that were made long before, rather than being understood through witnessing the very creation of these things like satan and his angels witnessed. (I am sure that they learned a lot more about GOD from witnessing the six day creation of Genesis 1:3 to 31.)
 
In verse 21, “knew GOD” must mean only knew about some superior power, rather than knowing YHWH personally and knowing that HE is GOD (like satan and his angels did after they put out of Paradise), and “vain” must be looked on as something each person becomes after their rebellion in life, rather than the way almost every person is born and, in the same vein, each child must be looked on as being born with an innocent heart and mind, rather than with a “reprobate mind” and a heart given over to and darkened by sin. Finally, in verse 32, “knowing the judgement of GOD” must be looked on as much less than the explicit knowledge of eternal damnation which it really is. How many persons do you know that know about their eternal damnation? But according to this verse, everyone should have a very clear knowledge of it, say like satan and his angels do.
 
Well, these Scriptures, as they plainly read, can not help but put the Created on Earth theorists in a difficult position. They must either reinterpret the class of men that Paul is writing about so that it does not refer to everyone who will be judged (that is, interpret it so that it includes only those who have received clear testimony to YHWH in this life and have rejected it); OR they must redefine all these attributes so that they apply to all persons, even those who die in infancy and ignorance.
 
These are the only real alternatives they have to accepting that the only way that these verses could be true, as they plainly read, is if all people had received this knowledge prior to their life on Earth.
 
Last of all, I think Paul again bears witness that this revelation is not received during this life, for if he thought it was, how could he have said in  1 Corinthians 13:12: For now we see through a glass, darkly;...now I know in part?
 
Are you really prepared to accept that the “clearly seen” and “shewed” of each and every pagan constitutes much, much less than the “through a glass darkly, - know in part” of most of the Christian crop?  f this is Paul's description of the attainment of most Christians in the knowledge of GOD, how can he possibly describe that which every pagan knows as “clearly seen” and “shewed”?
 
To my mind, if one is prepared to accept such a contradictory interpretation, he might as well throw his Bible away because, as someone once said, “then there is an end of all significance in language, and Scripture is wiped out as a definite testimony to anything.”
 
Just how much more reasonable is it to realise that the “clearly seen” revelation is the one that took place before Adam and Eve, and that the “through a glass darkly” is the description of the limits of the vision that the best Christians get on Earth? Much more to my mind![12]

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were SOMETIME alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven:

So GOD died so that we could become holy (vs. 22)! And how is that going to be achieved? Well, through the gospel that was preached to every creature under heaven. Wonder when this preaching took place!??? It must have been before the  “sometime” they were alienated!
 
I bet it would be a drag to cling to a different gospel, say one that has not been preached to every creature under heaven. Of course, every gospel has an interpretation for this verse. I guess you will just have to choose: is it hyperbole or fact? Which one makes the most sense?
 
1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him that is from the beginning.
 
I think that the translations of this verse reveal a little of the bias of our translators, that as soon as they get a Scripture which can not be reinterpreted to conform to their created on Earth presuppositions, they often just add a word or two so that it can (in the name of helping our understanding of course!) !
 
What I am referring to are the words “that is”.
 
They are not in the Greek text.
 
That is why they are italicised in some Bibles. Therefore I believe that I am much more correct than they are if I read the verse this way: I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known Him from the beginning.
 
What more do I need to say? GOD's word or man's word: which one are you going to take your stand on? Built on the Rock eh? Well, I’d just make sure that it is not a man-made rock!
 
---------------------------------------------------------
 
Notes for: [Part Two]
 
7.  Romans 2:6-8 - (GOD) Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.
 
8.  Wouldn't you say that the fact that babies are included among those who will be condemned shows that the Universal Witness of Creation that they received, was received before they began this life?
 
9.  In just the same way that there is no need for any missionary activity to reveal the existence of the sun, but there is a need for missionaries to reveal the truth about YHWH, as Paul states in Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard (in this life)?
 
10.  It is very hard for such people to account for this innate knowledge in themselves if everyone does not have it.

11.  Of course, I have grown to the point where I am not afraid to stand with the GOD of truth, that is, the holy GOD. That's the whole trouble with this doctrine. Its implications are not pretty. They don't fit in with our unholy, idolatrous fantasies very well.
 
12. One more thing about the reality we live in. Did you know that you could go to a place you have been in before you were conceived, a real place you would remember and a place you would call your real home? (For example, when a person dies, their first thought is usually, I'm dead - their second is, I'm back.)

 

 
 
 


Ted when the beginning 8 left the Ark, none of them did NOT believe. Somewhere down the line, A father choose not to tell his son(s). This began what we have today. This is also the reason why Jesus told us to tell the world about HIM.  It did not say when everyone was notified the end would come. It says when that last number, that last Christian of the CHurch(Body/Bride) of Christ happens, the end will begin.

So we keep trying to spread the word knowing that the one who we miss could have brought about the Rapture and the End Days. So get busy and tell everyone.

Blade
1 Cor 15:3-4.."For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

Acts 17:11.."These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
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DOES EVERYBODY KNOW? WHEN DID THEY FIND OUT? [Part One.]

 (Get ready. This is a pretty tough section. This meat has been dried in the sun, which makes for pretty hard chewing. Bet by the time you are finished you'll be wondering if you've been dried in the sun too!)

 It seems to be a fact of life that only some people get to hear the gospel of the truth about YHWH. Indeed, it would probably be accepted as a true fact in any courtroom, that the greater part of mankind has lived and died without possessing any knowledge of YHWH at all. This seems to be an irrefutable historical fact, but this fact seems to be contradicted by such Scriptures as Psalm 9:17, Isaiah 40:21, John 3:18, and Romans 1:18-32 (all of which are quoted and the exegesis dealt with next) simply because these Scriptures lead us to believe that everyone knows or has known about YHWH and HIS intention to judge every one who does not believe in HIM.

Now if this interpretation is correct (and it is), then we are left with the questions of how and when did each person hear the plain truth about YHWH, and why does the vast majority of mankind appear ignorant of this revealed truth? I believe that pre-conception theology offers a better solution to these questions and this paradox than any other does.

Psalms 9:17  The wicked shall return to Sheol, even all the nations who FORGET GOD.

Kiel - Delitzsch Commentary(#22): Yea, back to Hades must the wicked return, all the heathen, that FORGET GOD.
We will looked at the first part of this verse later under GOING BACK. There we concluded that for the wicked to go back to Sheol, they had to have left it at some time. Now in the second part of the verse, we can also see that these same returnees have forgotten GOD. (The KJV “and” is not in the Hebrew text. That is why it is italicised in many KJV Bibles.)

 Now to my mind it is possible to look on the forgetting of GOD in only one way, that it means the rejection and putting away of YHWH's self-attesting witness and HIS prophecy  warning of eternal judgement, which to have put away, they must have previously received.

Now the thing we have to determine is exactly when they received it, and so far as this apology is concerned, the question boils down to whether this revelation is received in this life or whether it is received before this life as per PCE theology?

 Now I do not believe that it is necessary to go into all the shortcomings of all the in-life theories right now because in this case, all I have to do is appeal to the first part of this verse on account of the fact that it clearly supports pre-conception theology in that it speaks of their return to Sheol.

Therefore may I suggest that since the first part of this verse clearly supports PCE theology, that constitutes a fairly strong witness that the time when David believed that the wicked received the revelation of YHWH and HIS judgement was also previous to this life.[1]

Isaiah 40:21 Have ye not known? Have ye not heard? Hath it not been told you from the beginning? Have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? First of all, from the context (you could read it) we can determine that what they have known, heard about, been told and understood is the truth that YHWH is the almighty sovereign GOD (Isaiah 40:10). That is what they have received.

Second, Isaiah asks his audience (that is ye) these questions in a way that demands an affirmative answer. In other words, Isaiah is saying: Ye have known, ye have heard, ye were told at the beginning (and perhaps since then), ye have understood since the foundations of the Earth, that YHWH is the sovereign GOD. Isaiah is not asking questions. He is giving answers.[2]

Next, we should try to determine the time when they received this witness. Once again, so far as this apology is concerned, this question boils down to whether they received it during this life. I do not think that I am very far off the mark when I say that the words, if taken straight forwardly, seem to say that this knowledge was received at the time of the foundation of the Earth, which to my mind is definitely prior to conception for everyone, at least since Adam and Eve. Isaiah's answer is an exact match to pre-conception theology, simple and straightforward.

John 3:16 For GOD so loved the world, that HE gave HIS only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For GOD sent not HIS Son into the world to condemn the world: but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of GOD. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world. And men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The proper understanding of these verses depends, first of all, upon the meaning ascribed to the word “world”. May I submit that this word means Adam and all his children? I think that this is in accord with the Greek, as Mr. Vine (#23) states: (the Greek word) “Kosmos is used to denote, by metonymy, the human race, mankind.”

And does GOD love just some of mankind, that is, only the ones living since Jesus came that have heard the gospel? No, HE loves the BC ones too. (Believe it!) Therefore the “world” must include everyone since Adam.

Secondly, proper understanding depends upon the meaning we ascribe to the words “condemned already”. I believe that we must consider the condemnation as being already present before they heard the gospel, which means that they would be under condemnation even before Jesus incarnated.

In other words, Jesus' incarnation did not result in the condemnation of unbelieving men: they were condemned already, ie, they loved the darkness before He came. He came to save them from the condemnation they were under.[3]

Now in verse 18 John says that the reason for the condemnation that was present before He incarnated was unbelief in the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD, that is, unbelief in the Person of Jesus and all that He stands for. Now in regard to this unbelief, something we have to establish is why they do not believe? What is the nature of their faithlessness?

For instance, should we read the verse, “those that believeth not on account of their ignorance in that they have never heard about the Son, are condemned already because they have omitted believing in the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD?” Or should we read the verse, “they that have refused to believe are condemned already because they have refused to believe in the Name of the only begotten Son?”

Now, the first interpretation seems to give an explanation for the condemnation of all those who have never heard about Jesus in this life, that is, their sin is a sin of omission. They have failed to do that which is expected of them and necessary for their salvation. This seems somewhat reasonable but, to believe that some people perish for lack of the knowledge of salvation, one must first deny either the sovereignty of GOD or the infiniteness of HIS love.

Their condemnation on account of their ignorance means that if He loves them and is trying to get the message of HIS Son to them, HE is failing in what HE is attempting to do. Or it means that if HE is able to get HIS message to them, HE does not love them enough to send it.

Therefore, it seems that this idea of their condemnation on account of their ignorant omission of faith is untenable with the revealed attributes of GOD, and we should not interpret Scripture in a way that denies the character of GOD should we?

Well, since the first interpretation is untenable with the attributes of GOD, then we are left with only the second, that is, that the entire unbelieving world is condemned because they have refused to believe in the Name or Person of the Son of GOD.

Now this conclusion regarding the nature of their unbelief leads us to another conclusion, to wit: that for there to be a refusal to believe in His Name, there must have been a prior revelation of His Name. In other words, for there to be a rebellion, there must first be a known authority (revealed God) to rebel against.

Now, two things show that there was such a self-attesting revelation given to all men.

First, it is shown by what John says in 3:19, that the Light has been shown to the world (ie,  to Adam and his children) but some men preferred darkness to Him, that is, disbelief to belief, disobedience to obedience. The men he is talking about all refused to believe in the Son. Their sin was not a sin of omission. They had received the self-attesting revelation of the Light, that is, of the Son.

Second, that every unbelieving man in history is included in this rebellious group, that is, that the revelation is universal, is proven by John 1:9 the true Light, which lighteth every man. From this verse, we can see that every person on Earth has received or seen the Light, that is, Jesus, even those who lived before He came and the gospel was proclaimed.

Now, having established these facts of the universal revelation of His Name and the rebellion of all unbelieving men, we are faced with the question as to when each and every person received the revelation of the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD? Once again so far as this apology is concerned, this question boils down to whether this revelation was received before life began or whether it was received during this life.

I believe that there are two things that bear witness that this revelation is received before this life begins (and is subsequently forgotten).

The first is the complete absence, before He incarnated, of any unscriptural testimony regarding the name of YHWH's Son. I think that if every BC person received the revelation of His Name in this life, someone would have written “it”[4] down, or at least remembered “it” and talked about “it” to someone else. In other words, I think that the truth about Him would have been fairly well known before He came.

Secondly, I think that John also gives us a fairly strong indication that this revelation was given before life began in John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. If every man comes into the world, then every man must exist before he comes into the world.[5] Therefore, I believe that these two things bear witness that the revelation of the name of YHWH's Son that is given to every person, was given before life began.

Well, as you no doubt noticed, this is a fairly drawn out argument. Therefore perhaps a short summary would be of some profit.

First, we saw that the entire unbelieving world was condemned already, that is, even before He came.

Second, we saw that the unbelievers are under condemnation for faithlessness in His Name.

Third, we saw that the sin of omission is untenable with the revealed attributes of GOD and that John 1:9 bears witness that the entire world has received the revelation of His Name.

For these reasons we concluded that the unbelievers' sin was a sin of rebellion rather than a sin of omission, which universal rebellion necessitates a previous universal revelation of His Name.

Finally, in regard to the time of the universal revelation of His Name, we felt first, that the lack of knowledge regarding His name in all of history prior to His incarnation hints strongly at a pre-life revelation, and second, that John 1:9, which says that every man comes into the world, being that it connotes every man's preconception existence, also hints strongly at a pre-life revelation of the name of YHWH's Son.[6]
 
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Notes for: Does Everybody Know? When Did They Find Out?

1. Like if you've spotted one elephant in the bush, it's not too hard to find another (especially when there are lots of them).

2. Very good job of hiding the answer, Isaiah! You could give a course on "How to lay an elephant on the people, that is, give attestation to the future revelation of our pre-conception existence, and seal it from even the sharpest eyes".

3. According to these definitions, I believe that we can read the verse like this: For GOD so loved Adam and his children that HE gave HIS unique Son, that whosoever of them should come to believe in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. For GOD sent not HIS Son unto Adam and his children to condemn them, but that they, through faith in Him, might be saved. Adam and those like him, that have returned to the Shepherd of their souls and now have a belief in Him that will continue forever, are no longer under condemnation, but those who still do not profess such a belief in Him, are still under condemnation that results from not believing in the previously revealed Name of the unique Son of GOD.

When we read the verses this way, it is a lot easier to see that before Christ incarnated to save men, men were already under condemnation for not believing in His Name.

4. For example, that “It” is divine.

5. We can tell that John 1:9 connotes pre-conception existence because almost every commentator rearranges this verse so that “cometh into the world” modifies “the Light”, rather than “every man”. If “cometh into the world” only meant birth, they could leave it as it plainly reads, but because it means pre-conception existence, it must be reinterpreted to fit the prev-ailing theological theories on the creation of the spirit, that is, it must modify Jesus because, to them, He is the only pre-existent Person. More on John 1:9 in the next section.

6. Like, elephant tracks are usually made by elephants!
Excellent post and thread Ted, sorry I didn't reply earlier but there is a lot to read here and elsewhere. Your threads are being read so that's great. You raised some very good points that can't really be refuted and this has always been in the back of my mind. There are many more scriptures than what you've already posted referring to us knowing God or knowing OF God before we were born. I am really leaning towards the Reformed theology in recent weeks.

Again, there are so many scriptures about predestination, foreknowledge, before the foundation of the world, our names written in the Book Of Life and so on. We can't overlook these scriptures and wish them away. It seems to me, as the Bible says, we were chosen BEFORE the foundation of the earth.


Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.


King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
Hearing, believing and trusting the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; His death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins, the gospel of our salvation, and repenting, seals us with that Holy Spirit of Promise. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise. 2 Peter 3:9 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV - Ephesians 1:10-14 KJV - Romans 10:9-10 KJV - Romans 10:13 - Romans 10:17 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Colossians 1:14 KJV -

Disclaimer:  This project and content is being made available for religious, political & social activism, teaching, educational and research purposes. This material is being made available within this transformative and/or derivative work for the purposes of education and activist commentary and criticism and is believed to be "Fair Use" in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107.
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